Madewell Mary's Jeans
An interview with the brand's Denim Director.
Readers, allow me to introduce you to Mary Pierson. For more than a decade, Mary has been leading the denim design teams for men and women at Madewell. I thought you might enjoy getting to know her a little, given how much so many of us love Madewell jeans.
I want to be clear - since Substack is now a desirable place for branded content – this is not a sponsored post. Mary, who spent years working at the iconic Cone/White factory in Greensboro, North Carolina, and has done everything from production to design for some of the biggest, most-influential American jeans companies (GAP, J Brand, J.Crew), is the definition of a denim expert. (Few people I’ve spoken to can side-note as eloquently about ring spun yarn as Mary.) For me, talking to her was a holiday-wish-list-level gift. One I’m excited to share with you.
There’s a lot happening at Madewell right now: The second installment of the brand’s denim-heavy collaboration with Alexa Chung dropped two days ago; a capsule with Kaihara – the legendary Japanese denim mill – has elevated some of the brand’s best-selling silhouettes (see the Low-Slung Baggy and this Super-Wide Leg); a cozy Winter collection is selling full-speed ahead. Here, Mary and I talk about the importance of fabric and size inclusivity, the real meaning of stretch, and why the 70s continue to inspire…
Jane: Let’s start at the beginning, how did you get into denim design?
Mary: I went to a design magnet high school, an art school. When I got out of college I applied for all these assistant designer jobs. Back then everything had to be done by hand, and I couldn't draw a flat – I seriously can't draw a straight line with a ruler – and I'm thinking, ‘This is going to be torture. I am never going to be able to pump out these tech packs.’ So I went into production. I started at J.Crew doing woven men's bottoms. I did production for five years, and then I went to work for Cone Mills [at the White Oak factory] in Greensboro, North Carolina. That’s where I got my very technical heritage denim education. I learned everything from these good old boys in North Carolina that had been at the mill for 40 years. It was the late nineties – Earl was starting, we helped [designer Suzanne Costas] get going; Seven was starting. And there was this craze for these L.A. brands that were really interesting and very hot. But I really started by doing fabric and learning fabric, R&D, fabric development and fabric marketing.
Jane: I didn’t realize you worked at Cone/White Oak. [Readers, this was one of the most famous denim mills in the U.S., specifically for its selvedge. It sadly closed in 2017.] What was that like and what was it like living in Greensboro, coming from NYC?
Mary: I'm a very hardcore New Yorker – my parents are Korean immigrants and I grew up in Queens – and actually anytime I get out of New York, I'm happy. I like adventure, I like change. [Working at Cone/White Oak] was an experience, such a crazy experience. Meeting those guys, those mill guys, they were these southern gentlemen. They were just a wealth of knowledge. They started [at the mill] and they retired there. [When I was there], all the upcoming brands were coming to Cone for their denim. I can still tell you what fabrics the Earl jeans were in: The Earl jean jacket was in the Cone Bronco twill. The jeans were in the Cone Centennial Heavyweight. I remember, I can tell you Marc Jacobs’s first denim collection was in the Cone 87 68 Urban Legends denim. I have an encyclopedic memory of these moments in the history of denim fashion.
Jane: It was so sad when the Cone/White Oak mill closed.
Mary: It’s heartbreaking. At Madewell, we were really big supporters. We ran a lot of Cone/White Oak white denim for a long time, just trying to do our part because we were able to, and we didn't have to go for the cheapest of the cheap. [American-made denim can be more expensive than denim made overseas.] So we did try to buy as much as we could to keep [the White Oak mill] going. But yeah, the fact that there's so little American selvedge [denim] to be had now. It's sad.
Jane: You started at Madewell in 2013 – What was going on in denim there at that time?
Mary: Madewell didn't have a real denim business when I got here. They had denim, but they didn't have a point of view and they didn't have a really strong understanding of fabric and fit. I think skinny was so dominant back then, and they were doing a skinny in a very low stretch fabric. And it was a cool girl jean but it wasn't reaching the audience that it needed to reach. So I think we just established the basics: These are the fits, these are the rises, these are the fabrics. We got into some amazing fabrics and the business started to take off. Since then, we've grown the business steadily for 10+ years.
When I came to Madewell, I said, ‘I can build a product line, but I need to use good fabric. I can't be asked to use the cheapest of the cheapest. I'll be very reasonable. I don't need to go after everything that’s the most expensive, but I need to be in what I feel is premium quality for that price point and a good value.’ And I think that is probably one of the biggest reasons why we've been successful – because our quality is there. People can feel it, they can see it. When you put it on you notice a difference. Our stretch doesn't feel like it's going to grow out. It has nice guts and weight to it.
Jane: As you’re saying all of this, I’m thinking specifically about your 1% Comfort Stretch.
Mary: It's really technical. Stretch, or elongation, is all about how much [a fabric] comes out and bounces back, that's all. It's not contingent only on the amount of stretch [material] that's in the fabric. It's how it’s heat set. You can make 1% stretch out a lot but then it can be heat set so that it comes back. It's really about how the denim is finished. 3% stretch can have the same elongation as 1%. It might feel different and have a different look on the surface. But a high percentage of stretch [material] doesn't equal high stretch. Isn't it crazy?
What’s really great about the 1% Comfort Stretch that we do is that it doesn't look like stretch. It's hefty, it has a really authentic yarn character, but then you put it on and it’s like, ‘Oh, there's stretch, there's comfort.’ And I think that's what resonates with our customers. Especially for our Curvy customer. For her, there’s the stretch and we’ve adjusted the fit so that it fits a booty and doesn’t gap in the back.
Jane: Tell me about some of your Curvy styles.
Mary: We have a Curvy version of almost all our core fits. Perfect Vintage Wie Leg is probably one of the biggest styles. We have the new Darted Barrel Jean, which is 100% cotton, so rigid. We developed a very easy, understandable barrel and it's become one of our top sellers that also comes in our Softdrape. We have the 90s Straight in Curvy.
Jane: I love that style, personally.
Mary: Yeah. It’s a quintessential straight jean. We have that in Curvy. We have a fashion style called the Super Wide-Leg, in the Softdrape fabric. [This style also comes in standard non-stretch.] We have the Full Length Kickout, and that's in a high stretch. It’s a nice slim boot cut.
Jane: What’s special about your Softdrape?
Mary: There’s a lot at play right now with blended fabrics like Tencel and cashmere for drape because there's so much volume in legs, and it’s more forgiving. It’s not so compact as far as the construction, so it is a little looser. It’s almost like there's mechanical stretch in it, but there's actually no stretch content in the Softdrape fabric.
Jane: It's so nice. It’s almost silky.
Mary: Yeah, like you have nothing on.
Jane: We’re getting into holiday now. What does dressed up denim look like to you?
Mary: Probably darker jeans. Black jeans, sometimes a little sheen, sometimes a little embellishment, sometimes a little texture. This holiday we focused on “cozy.” The Softdrape fabric has a little bit of cashmere – just the tiniest bit of cashmere in the denim – that retains heat and gives you that cozy feeling. But you can wear any of our blacks in any of our silhouettes, and then use other items to really dress them up for the season.
Jane: What is your personal favorite fit?
Mary: I am big on the Kickout, but old school, I’m like a 517 Kickout person. I wear a lot of selvedge. I think my favorite Madewell style ever is the Slim Boyjean because it was once the only straight leg jean we had in the land of skinnies. I wasn't a big skinny jean wearer. I always wore something that had a little bit more of a cigarette leg because I don't have hips. I have the worst denim body, but I know how to make jeans that fit other people.
Jane: What jeans did you wear growing up?
Mary: Levi's. I grew up wearing boy’s jeans because I'm so straight-hipped. There are three jeans I remember: A pair of 501s I wore in high school all the way through college, with cowboy boots. That was the thing to wear – cowboy boots with your 501 jeans, or your boot cut jeans.
At some point I bought a pair of Calvin Klein boy’s jeans that were baggy and bleached out to death. And I remember, sometimes I would add more bleach when I was washing them, just to get them almost white. I wore old school vintage grandpa blazers with those jeans and my Doc Martens and a belt. I eventually cut those into shorts.
And then, when Guess started making those jeans with the zippers at the bottom, and they were $50 – $50! – I remember going to Bloomingdale's and buying my first pair of Guess jeans for $50, and I was like, ‘Woo, I'm living high on the hog here because it was so expensive.’ Those are the jeans that really stand out for me.
But I have been a Levi’s girl forever. There are so many pictures of me in Levi’s cut-off shorts. Martha's Vineyard with my college friends, Levi’s cut-off shorts, the hair big, the hair small, same Levi’s cut-off shorts. And I wear a lot of [Madewell’s] relaxed shorts. I wear test a lot our stuff to make sure I understand the feeling of the fabric, the wash, the fit.
Jane: For those who may not know, how does a wear test work?
Mary: It’s when I wear a pair of jeans to learn about a fabric. It helps edit out what I feel won't work. I might wear [a new style or fabric] for 30 seconds and be like, ‘No way.’ If I like it, I'll wear it for a few hours. If I really like it, I might just keep it. Without understanding how it feels, how can I even put it together? Especially stretch. Rigid is a different story. I don't think you need to wear test rigid. But with stretch, there are so many things happening. Personally, I don't think you need to go beyond 50% stretch. Any more than that and you can't keep the shape of a jean without distorting it. You want a retaining wall at some point, right?
Jane: That's a great way to put it.
Mary: So, that’s the kind of wear test that we do, internally. Then we test new styles by cutting a few hundred pieces, and putting it out to stores to see how the customers react. How big can this get? We didn't do a lot of that when skinny was so dominant, but now that there are so many different shapes and styles – wide legs and straight legs that go from lean-straight to a little wider; legs that are palazzo-y. There’s knee suppression – is it a tight flare or is it a loose flare or is it just a slight boot fit? Or a Kickout? Inseams are a big thing. And now we're getting into these slouchy fits. There's a lot of more play with non-stretch fabric, which makes us so happy. Those are the best fabrics to wash. Rigid denims, they yield the best-looking washes. That’s where the excitement is right now.
Jane: Have you ever thought about, or do you have a way to describe what you feel for jeans? What draws you to denim versus leather or accessories or knitwear?
Mary: I think it’s about the hunt for that perfect pair, and then the love affair you have once you find it. It’s a universal thing, whether you're aware of it or not.
I always say, Once you get hit by that denim bug, that's it. You're done. You're not interested in any other [clothing] category. And people are like, ‘Why?’ Because denim is the most versatile. You can do so many different things, and you can always come up with something new just by understanding technology and science and chemistry. It's almost like cooking. So many different recipes. It’s never boring. It's just never boring. I just love the story, the history of it all. And it's a very intimate category. You can’t help but be emotionally connected to it. I don't think you can be a good denim designer if you're not passionate about it.
“I always say this: Once you get hit by that denim bug, that's it. You're done. And people are like, ‘Why?’ Because denim is the most versatile. You can do so many different things, and you can always come up with something new just by understanding technology and science and chemistry. It's almost like cooking.”
Jane: Do you have a favorite denim era? Is there a moment in denim history that continues to inspire you?
Mary: The seventies. There's something magical about the seventies and what was happening with flares back then. It resurfaces for me constantly. Maybe it was the whole women's movement, but a lot of those great patch pocket jeans and flared jeans are specific to women. I was a child back then, but now as an adult I think that period was really a defining moment for women's jeans.
Jane: I mean, we're living in a defining moment for women – and perhaps women’s denim – right now. There’s so much variety. And maybe it’s not a coincidence that 70s bohemia is back.
Mary: It’s interesting because there is a lot of upcycling happening. There’s a lot of interest in sustainability. And I think we’re going to see more people taking jeans that are no longer in style, and asking, ‘How do you make these something special, again?’ To me, as we're thinking about re-creating and upcycling and taking something old and making it new, I think leg shape comes into play a lot. You can do a lot more with a flare or a wide leg than you can a skinny. Converting, adding things, or combining two jeans to make one. And then there’s definitely something about the seventies that’s always exciting for women's denim. Specifically women's denim. I do men's, but I'm not jonesing for a great flared jean for guys right now. But you're always trying to do a new great flare jean for women. It's hot, it's cool. And it's specifically for women.
“To me, as we're thinking about re-creating and upcycling and taking something old and making it new, I think leg shape comes into play a lot. You can do a lot more with a flare or a wide leg than you can a skinny.”
Jane: Tell me about a time you felt inspired.
Mary: The last time I was in Japan, I found a dead stock perfect size, 25 Levi's 517 with its tags, raw. And I was like, 'Oh my God.’
It was literally $30. At a thrift store. So I snatched it up. I mean, it had a 36 inch inseam. It was raw. Oh my God. I brought it home and put it on the fit model. I said, ‘This is what we're going to do.’ The 517s always have those kind of skinny-ish back pockets and so it was like, ‘How are we going to translate all this stuff?’ But once you find something and the light goes on, you just start. I start thinking, ‘Okay, the yoke needs to be this tall and the leg opening needs to be this, and we're going to do the knee break right above the knee to elongate that leg,’ and we start getting it into, ‘Okay, the belts loops need to be this.’ That’s how it happens. Fit development is something we spend a lot of time on because we want to be known for the best fits. And every time something comes out, I look at it and I'm like, ‘Oh, we can do better than this.’ I'm always going back and saying, ‘This is good. It could be better.’ I’m just always looking to make improvements and learn and evolve. Learn and evolve. I think that's the most important thing to do.
Wishing everyone a peaceful weekend. Wear jeans, it works. A huge thank you to Mary for sharing her insights. And thanks to all of you for reading. Denim forever.
Jane
More good links…
Who needs new sneakers?
I’m having a sale. It won’t last forever.
Belts, belts, and more belts.
I learned so much! And Mary seems so cool. I want to be her friend! Xoxox
Love this interview. Interesting, educational, exciting! Thanks for sharing!